About Forks, Part II

One of our earliest posts was called About Forks. Later, we added a post called Luncheon, Place & Dinner Size - What's the Difference?. Both posts dealt with the various sizes of forks one might find within a single pattern. This post adds additional information along the same line.

Sticking with our old friend, Chantilly by Gorham, for yet another example, we remind you that in the Chantilly pattern, there are two basic fork categories that are about 7.5 inches long - a "place" fork and a "dinner" fork (called "table" fork in early Gorham literature). The place fork is slightly narrower and lighter than the dinner fork. On the back of place forks in several patterns, Gorham imprints the letter, "P", inside a diamond shape.

The heavier dinner fork does not have any special marks regarding its size. Now, here's the rub, at least in the Chantilly pattern - Gorham has made at least two different dinner forks. Look at the picture below. The dinner fork on the bottom is the one we see most often. It has tines that are 2 inches long. The dinner fork on top has tines that are 2 3/8 inches long. Since both forks are 7.5 inches long overall, the top fork has a slightly shorter handle than the one on the bottom and the base area of the tines is also slightly shorter. The fork on top is about 1/16 inch wider than the one on the bottom.

So, if you are buying additional dinner forks, especially in the Chantilly pattern, make sure you understand how long the tines are. Most sellers, us included, will make sure that you know about it if the tines are 2 3/8 inches but we might not mention it if the tines are 2 inches. If it's not specified for some forks you're considering buying, ask the seller about it.

Here's another reminder - many sellers state in their ads that they are selling dinner forks when, in reality, they are selling luncheon forks, dessert forks or place forks. Always understand the overall length, width and tine length of forks you're considering. And, in the case of Gorham patterns, understand the distinction between place and dinner forks.

If you would like to see all our posts about forks at one time, look in the right column under "Labels" and click on "Forks".

Click on any picture to see a larger version. By clicking on "Comments/Questions" below, you can see posted comments and add your own questions and comments. Or, you can send us an email by clicking on "Email Silver Jim" in the right column.

Dessert Fork vs. Luncheon Fork

Many patterns include a fork that is roughly 7 inches long - this size is called a "luncheon" fork by many. We propose that such forks might actually have been designated "dessert" forks by the manufacturer. Look below at the picture taken from The "Buttercup" Spoons and Forks printed by Gorham Manufacturing Co. in 1900.

This document illustrates the pieces in actual size. The dessert fork is about 6 7/8 inches long. It appears to be ever so slightly wider and shorter than the "luncheon" fork we see today in the Buttercup pattern. Similar dessert forks also appear in Gorham catalogs of the same era for Strasbourg and Chantilly.

So, measure your forks carefully and make sure you know what you are buying when you add to your collection. We are interested in your thoughts on this subject. Leave a comment or send an email.

Click on any picture to see a larger version. By clicking on "Comments/Questions" below, you can see posted comments and add your own questions and comments. Or, you can send us an email by clicking on "Email Silver Jim" in the right column.

My Salad Forks Don't Weigh the Same!

Don't be alarmed. Manufacturers have, over the years, modified the weight of flatware pieces slightly. It seems to us that weights have decreased gradually. In some cases, manufacturers have identified specific weights on pieces but not always (see our post, Gorham Weight Marks).

Generally speaking, weight differences are not all that noticeable. So, it's OK to mix different weights in the same set as far as we are concerned.

One note of caution is worth mentioning. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples. For example, Gorham makes a dinner fork and a place fork in its Buttercup pattern. Both are 7.5 inches long overall but there is quite a bit of difference in weight (see our post, About Forks).

Click on any picture to see a larger version. By clicking on "Comments/Questions" below, you can see posted comments and add your own questions and comments. Or, you can send us an email by clicking on "Email Silver Jim" in the right column.

Luncheon, Place & Dinner Size - What's the Difference?

We hear variations of this question a lot. We've talked about the differences in sizes before. In the margin on the right of the screen, click on "Forks", "Knives" and "Place Size" to see what we've already said. Since we still receive questions, we thought we would summarize again here.

Many sterling flatware patterns offer at least three different sizes of forks and knives. Some also offer different sizes of salad forks and soup spoons. The size groups are called, moving from shortest to longest:

• Luncheon
• Place
• Dinner

The dinner size traditionally has been used for more formal dinners. Dinner forks typically range between 7.5 inches and 8 inches. Dinner knives range between 9.5 and 10 inches. Luncheon pieces typically have been used for meals other than formal dinners. A luncheon knife generally is 9 inches or shorter. A luncheon fork generally is 7 inches or shorter.

Some sterling flatware manufacturers started producing the "place" size as a compromise. Silver prices began to soar and it was too expensive for many homes to own more than one length of forks and knives. So, the place pieces served for luncheon or dinner. A place fork often is around 7.5 inches long and a place knife is often about 9.25 inches long. Gorham marks its place pieces with a "P" inside a tiny diamond shape.

It can be a bit confusing because some place pieces and dinner pieces are the same length in a given pattern. For example, in Gorham's Chantilly and Buttercup patterns, the dinner fork and place fork are both 7.5 inches long. When you examine the pieces closely in these patterns, you realize that the dinner fork is a tiny bit wider and somewhat heavier than the place fork.

There is another size, "continental", that is even larger than the dinner size. You see this sometimes in Europe but not often in the United States.

Today, size has become less important. All sizes are used for all purposes by many people. The choice is really up to you.

By clicking on "Comments/Questions" below, you can see posted comments and add your own questions and comments. Or, you can send us an email by clicking on "View My Complete Profile" in the right column.

Is it for Salad, Dessert, Fish, Pastry...?

Look at the picture below. What is it?

• Salad fork?
• Dessert fork?
• Fish fork?
• Pastry fork?

The reason we ask the question is because we have seen forks like this listed as all the above descriptive names by sellers in their ads!

I think most of us agree that this is a salad fork (see our earlier post, About Forks). So why is it called by the other names? We think it could be one of these reasons:

• The seller is too lazy to look it up
• The seller is trying to get a better price by calling it something more exotic
• The seller is trying to broaden the market for the item by giving it multiple uses (e.g., "This is a salad/fish/dessert fork...")

Many sterling flatware patterns include unique fish forks that may vaguely resemble a salad fork but generally are quite different. Many patterns also include pastry forks that also look different. So, to call this a fish fork or pastry fork is incorrect, we believe.

Now that brings us to dessert forks. We would like to receive comments about this because we are having trouble coming up with an example of a piece identified by the manufacturer as a "dessert fork". It is true that many people use salad forks when serving certain types of desserts. So, perhaps it is OK to use "dessert" as an alternate name for this piece. What do you think?

If you are looking for pieces with the names included in this post, make sure you have a picture and precise measurements for reference before you buy.

Let us hear from you about this.

Click on any picture to see a larger version. By clicking on "Comments" below, you can see posted comments and add your own questions/comments.

About Forks

This is a companion post to our very first post on October 18, 2008, "About Knives". I invite you to read that post before reading this one.

Just as with knives, many sterling flatware patterns include at least three different sizes of "primary" forks. Below is an example of forks in the Buttercup pattern by Gorham, starting at the top:

• Dinner ............ 7 1/2 inches long
• Place ............... 7 1/2 inches long
• Luncheon ....... 7 inches long

You are probably asking yourself, "So, what's the difference between place and dinner forks in this pattern? They are the same length." In the case of Buttercup, there is a difference between the length ratio of handle-to-tines. The dinner fork has longer tines and a shorter handle. Also, the dinner fork is slightly wider at the base of the tines. The result is a more "hefty" feel for the dinner fork.

It should be noted that every pattern is different with respect to this type of fork. Some have three different lengths, some have two, etc. If you are buying a fork, you should verify these size parameters with the seller to make sure the fork matches your need:

• Overall length
• Length of tines and handle
• Width at the base of the tines

Don't judge the size by name alone. Buyers and sellers often are confused about nomenclature.

Salad forks also may come in different sizes. The picture below illustrates salad forks from the Buttercup pattern by Gorham, from top to bottom:

• Place salad fork ..... 6 3/4 inches long
• Salad fork ............... 6 3/8 inches long

Not every pattern has multiple lengths of salad forks but you should verify the size anyway before buying.

You may sometimes see a salad fork identified as a dessert fork or fish fork. Again, always verify size and look at a picture before buying.

Click on any picture to see a larger version. By clicking on "Comments" below, you can see posted comments and add your own questions/comments.